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 Ye Olde Aerial Boost

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Do you think that Aerial Boost has had any effect on Need for Madness gameplay?
Yes, and a positive one at that.
56%
 56% [ 10 ]
Yes, but a negative one.
33%
 33% [ 6 ]
No, it has had no effect at all.
11%
 11% [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 18
 

AuthorMessage
Turbo
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PostSubject: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Thu 14 Nov 2013, 5:36 am

The basic question I'm asking the community of NFM members is: What should be done, if anything, about Aerial Boosting?

Let me explain what this is NOT:
- A rant against prominent ABers (abusers or otherwise)
- A way to rage against Radical One
- A call to ban ABers

I'm simply asking what you guys think about AB. In other games, in which such a glitch can be exploited for an advantage of more experienced players over the less experienced, the glitch is almost immediately patched, and the exploiters reprimanded. However, in Need for Madness, I have seen the complete opposite; Aerial Boosting is considered a tell-tale sign of experience, and most organized clans and players consider the ability to AB as an important indicator of a person's NFM abilities. We have, simply put, become complacent with this blatant abuse of the game. Any who challenge the legitimacy of AB users' skill level, and those who suggest it be removed, are often drowned out in the cacophony of opposition, notably from other players who are either in a position of respect in the community, or are completely dependent upon the glitch (or, in some cases, both).

In my view, i think that Aerial Boost was a mistake that was exploited once players discovered its relevance and usefulness in the game, especially in racing. However, having watched the NFM Multiplayer project from its infancy, I have become disappointed as the use of the glitch became more and more widespread, to the point that it is now commonplace and expected behavior. I do not believe that this is how the game is meant to be played. We do not see any evidence of AI cars utilizing AB, nor did most of the players in this community even know it existed until they were told (I cannot recall a game with the game creator, Omar Waly, in which he actually utilized Aerial Boost). Radical Ones, though they have the greatest stunting stats, were meant to use their stunting abilities to push forward at a greater speed while airborne, not to bounce up and down upon the ground to outpace other cars.

I suppose that is my underlying argument here, that if one observes the best racing cars in the game (disregarding Classes or Tiers, which were not even introduced until relatively recent times) to be Radical One, Mighty Eight, and Formula 7, one senses a balance. Formula 7, the aggressive, weak, fastest racer; Mighty Eight, the tight-turning, slightly stronger and second fastest racer; and Radical One, the graceful, strong, 3rd fastest racer. Without aerial boost, these cars are truly even, and each has a quality that the other lacks completely. However, once AB is factored into the equation, this equilibrium is completely destroyed, as both Formula 7 and Mighty Eight (the latter to a lesser extent) now are less able to compete with all of the abilities of Radical One.

If you do not consider this to be a real issue, consider Phyrexian's (as of now) ongoing "Clan Racing Competition" (http://aimgames.forummotion.com/t2815-clan-racing-competition-2013). Take a look at the times for the qualifying round. We see impressive values, mostly concentrated between 58 seconds and 1 minute. All of these were achieved with Radical Ones, WITH aerial boost. How fast could they finish, without using aerial boost? I am skeptical that even the slowest time recorded on his qualifying round would be achievable without aerial boost of any kind. Even Mighty 8 users would struggle to come close without AB, and Formula 7 users would be just as hopeless.

What is to be done? We have one car with specific stats completely dominating one spectrum of Need for Madness, while all the others simply lose out. We can draw this argument to other cars and for wasters as well, but that parallel shall be discussed at a later date. For now, I ask you this question: How can we reestablish the equilibrium between the best racers? (And even further, how do we make all of the other race-oriented cars more competitive as well)
It seems that the most logical explanation (in my view) is to completely remove AB. (An alternative, as I discussed with a TF7 colleague, would be to quantify AB with similarities to the power meter). This would be met with resistance from most of the community, I understand, but I implore you all to ask yourselves WHY you are really resisting.

Are you resisting because you do not believe that this will make NFM fairer for all? If so, provide an alternative solution.

Are you resisting because you think that NFM is already fair, and that those who do not know about the so-called "common knowledge" of AB should simply suck it up and either learn how to do it or lose racing games (or waste)?

Or are you resisting...because you know that if you lose Aerial Boosting, your strategies, game-play techniques, and perhaps your dominance in any particular field of NFM (especially racing) will be severely affected?

I am open to a debate upon these issues. I especially would like to ask the members of the community who have made it their goal to master Radical One and other AB-prone vehicles to comment their views, and how we can make it fairer for all. I understand that this may not be a comfortable conversation (questioning how things are and how they might change is difficult for all humans), but it is nevertheless one that must be had.

In summary, and for all you TL;DR people: Are you willing to continue exploiting a glitch for your own sake? Or will you relinquish it to level the playing field?
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Kaffeinated
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Thu 14 Nov 2013, 5:56 am

Maybe it should be explained in the instructions. NFM is made out to not follow the laws of physics, and AB'ing is definitely "mad" as well. If it was taken away, I've sure other aspects of the overall physics of NFM would have to be modified.

(TBH, I didn't read the whole post since I only have like a few seconds on my computer, but that's how I feel about AB'ing in general.)


Last edited by Kaffeinated on Thu 14 Nov 2013, 7:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Radical24
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Thu 14 Nov 2013, 5:59 am

As a person who was a mainly racer before AB was discovered.. i can't stand it and i wish it would be removed.. it removed the competition and the blance that F7, M8 and R1 had and now R1 get's an unfair advantage just because of a glitch, that should be fixed.
Not to mention that new players have no idea how to perform such things which also puts them at a disadvantage untill they discover it
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SinfulBliss
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Thu 14 Nov 2013, 6:36 am

@Turbo wrote:
We have, simply put, become complacent with this blatant abuse of the game
I disagree. This isn't, by any means, an "abuse of the game". When stunts are high enough, a car is able to AB. Even if this was a glitch, and Omar didn't intend it, it is still a necessary part of NFMM. Without AB, all of R1's stunts would be awkward and slow. The AB simply allows cars with high stunts to not get left in the dust while they're in the air.

@Turbo wrote:
Any who challenge the legitimacy of AB users' skill level, and those who suggest it be removed, are often drowned out in the cacophony of opposition
This is simply incorrect. People challenge my skill level all the time, and it has nothing to do with AB. You're suggesting that challenging an AB users' skill level gets more reprimand than challenging a non-AB users' skill level. This is false.

It's all fine and good that Omar doesn't utilize AB. Omar, also, doesn't play the game competitively.

@Turbo wrote:
I do not believe that this is how the game is meant to be played
Really, and you believe that lagging another player for 0 recoil damage is how the game is, "meant to be played"? If you want to argue how NFMM was "meant to be played", argue lag. Argue pitch black stages. Argue OP customs. Argue disconnection errors. Argue nuking. Argue driving out of the track. Argue everything. The fact of the matter is, this game is never going to be played how it was meant to be played. The quicker we accept this, the better.

@Turbo wrote:
Without aerial boost, these cars are truly even
Again, I disagree. R1 would be completely annihilated in all races without AB. How about you test it? Challenge an M8 or an F7 to any stage, and never use AB. Observe how you get destroyed. F7 is a Class C. You say, "disregard classes or tiers". When equating one car to another, you simply can't do this. If you want to disregard classes or tiers, then I say that Max Revenge needs to be even to M8 and R1 and F7. I say that La Vita Crab needs to, as well. We're only discussing Class A here, if you want to discuss others then please argue for all of them.

M8 and R1 are even, in my opinion. M8s can beat R1s if they race correctly, and R1s can beat M8s if they race correctly. Certain stages favor certain cars. Although R1 is a strong car, this doesn't directly help with a race. You can't use R1's strength as an advantage in the racing-field.

As for Phy's clan racing competition...

The qualifying round was held on Gun Run, which is practically R1's home stage. Of course R1 will be the one to perform best on it, it's just common sense.

@Turbo wrote:
We have one car with specific stats completely dominating one spectrum of Need for Madness
R1 does not dominate the entire racing side of Need For Madness. R1 is often used as a waster, in fact. A hybrid never dominates one side completely, as a hybrid is a mix of the two sides. Some stages R1 monopolizes simply because his AB gives him massive advantage in those stages. Other times, AB'ing with R1 is useless and can lose you the race. If you were to not AB with R1, you would be crushed by utterly every competitive racer. You would land your stunts with massive shock, you would be going up while your opponent would be going toward the finish line.

The reason it may appear as if R1 is doing so well among racers is simply because everyone uses R1. R1's competitive gameplay has evolved and evolved over time. Meanwhile, M8 and F7 users are few and far between, causing their metagame to come to a halt. DS used M8 just for a little bit, and he allegedly discovered some techniques unique to M8 as well. If you want to complain about R1 having too much of an advantage, complain only after figuring out every little thing an M8/F7 can do to win.

@Turbo wrote:
Are you resisting because you do not believe that this will make NFM fairer for all? If so, provide an alternative solution.
I do not in fact believe it would make NFM fairer for anyone. I don't need to supply an alternate solution. The solution is already there, just being overlooked. How do I make M8 and F7 better cars for racing? Race with them more. It's as simple as that. Removing AB in order to even the field is giving up. Being spoon-fed.

@Turbo wrote:
Are you resisting because you think that NFM is already fair, and that those who do not know about the so-called "common knowledge" of AB should simply suck it up and either learn how to do it or lose racing games (or waste)?
Yes, it is already fair (in the racing side). Like I said, here you go bashing "common-knowledge". Bash people who use lag. Anyone who isn't familiar with lag is destroyed by a familiar user. Besides, learning how to AB is incredibly easy. It takes maybe 30 seconds, and you're done. People who know fewer techniques get beaten out by people who know more techniques. That's the way any competitive game works. Bash the concept of competitive games as a whole, then.

Your 3rd assumption as to why people are aggressively against this goes on the false premise that dropping AB will destroy all of someone's strategies, game-play techniques, and dominance. I disagree with this.


I've been an avid R1 user for all my time here since NFM1, so I feel that if anyone needs to defend R1, I should.



TL;DR: A "glitch" made part of the game after years of going on no longer can be considered a glitch; rather, it becomes a part of the game itself. The playing field is leveled and has been leveled for a long time. People need to persevere if they desire success.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Thu 14 Nov 2013, 6:08 pm

I'm going to go on a 50/50 analysis of this entire controversy surrounding the most commonly argued aspect in the game, which, for some reason cannot be solved and concluded ever since it was introduced.

I, myself am capable of racing with both, F7 and M8, as well as their nemesis, R1. I do not care, whatsoever, if I get out-stunted, out-bounced, out-lagged, out-run, by an R1 when using M8's or F7's. Because I know if I was to 1v1 someone with an M8 game, against someone who's predominantly an R1 user, I would know that they would have a harder time catching up to me since they would be "more used to" R1.

Just like Kaff said,
@Kaffeinated wrote:
NFM is made out to not follow the laws of physics, and AB'ing is definitely "mad" as well.
simple as that, if you don't like the way NFMM sees racing with certain cars like R1, of which you believe are unbalanced and irregular compared to the other predominant racers (F7 & M8), then go play games like NFS.

AB is a VERY exclusive featured towards R1, and without AB, then R1 won't be R1, just like F7 won't be F7 without it's ability to nuke other cars, and M8 won't be M8 without it's ability of sharp turning. The only reason I use R1 is because everybody else uses R1, and NFMM is a competitive game. I AB because others AB, otherwise you'd be sitting ducks in last place if all you did was forward loops. You see, the way that other people utilize R1's feature to the MAX, I am forced to do the same if I want to stay ahead and actually compete. I understand that when an R1 AB's and lands on you being an F7 or M8, you'll get launched but that's not R1's fault, that would be your fault for picking such a car, and your fault for not looking back in the first place. Yes, racing with R1 is sure as hell a lot easier than, say, racing in F7 due to lack of stunts and the probability of you being unintentionally dirty-raced, but that's how the game is and HAS been since NFM1 (2005). You probably noticed how I used to be an M8 kind of racer back in late 2011 early through mid-2012 because AB wasn't that common as a racing skill back then, but now I am practically forced to use R1 and AB to at least be able to COMPETE.

What you are trying to imply outlandishly is the fact that you hate AB and that you think it's not meant to be. NFMm has never been a fair game ever since lag was introduced, otherwise how would you explain the demise of a MASHEEN from an F7 or Nimi? Even though lag is an inevitable part of the game now, so is AB when referring to a person's racing style/skill. It's the prominent feature of the Radical One, and has been since NFM1. If you remove such a feature, then there is practically no point of R1 even existing w/o AB.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Thu 14 Nov 2013, 6:30 pm

I'd just like to say that I used M8 in my Gun Run time trial. Also. AB'ing has been around since NFM1 so it isn't a glitch at this point.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Thu 14 Nov 2013, 8:38 pm

@Seabiscuit wrote:
I'm going to go on a 50/50 analysis of this entire controversy surrounding the most commonly argued aspect in the game, which, for some reason cannot be solved and concluded ever since it was introduced.

I, myself am capable of racing with both, F7 and M8, as well as their nemesis, R1. I do not care, whatsoever, if I get out-stunted, out-bounced, out-lagged, out-run, by an R1 when using M8's or F7's. Because I know if I was to 1v1 someone with an M8 game, against someone who's predominantly an R1 user, I would know that they would have a harder time catching up to me since they would be "more used to" R1.

Just like Kaff said,
@Kaffeinated wrote:
NFM is made out to not follow the laws of physics, and AB'ing is definitely "mad" as well.
simple as that, if you don't like the way NFMM sees racing with certain cars like R1, of which you believe are unbalanced and irregular compared to the other predominant racers (F7 & M8), then go play games like NFS.

AB is a VERY exclusive featured towards R1, and without AB, then R1 won't be R1, just like F7 won't be F7 without it's ability to nuke other cars, and M8 won't be M8 without it's ability of sharp turning. The only reason I use R1 is because everybody else uses R1, and NFMM is a competitive game. I AB because others AB, otherwise you'd be sitting ducks in last place if all you did was forward loops. You see, the way that other people utilize R1's feature to the MAX, I am forced to do the same if I want to stay ahead and actually compete. I understand that when an R1 AB's and lands on you being an F7 or M8, you'll get launched but that's not R1's fault, that would be your fault for picking such a car, and your fault for not looking back in the first place. Yes, racing with R1 is sure as hell a lot easier than, say, racing in F7 due to lack of stunts and the probability of you being unintentionally dirty-raced, but that's how the game is and HAS been since NFM1 (2005). You probably noticed how I used to be an M8 kind of racer back in late 2011 early through mid-2012 because AB wasn't that common as a racing skill back then, but now I am practically forced to use R1 and AB to at least be able to COMPETE.

What you are trying to imply outlandishly is the fact that you hate AB and that you think it's not meant to be. NFMm has never been a fair game ever since lag was introduced, otherwise how would you explain the demise of a MASHEEN from an F7 or Nimi? Even though lag is an inevitable part of the game now, so is AB when referring to a person's racing style/skill. It's the prominent feature of the Radical One, and has been since NFM1. If you remove such a feature, then there is practically no point of R1 even existing w/o AB.
I wouldn't say it's that easy, of course its easy to out-race the M8s and F7s, but bounce-spamming takes a lot of effort to perfect and is quite challenging against other AB users (at least I find it that way).
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Turbo
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Sat 16 Nov 2013, 12:28 am

The first thing I'd like to point out is that this is with regards to AERIAL BOOST, not Radical One. The only reason I cite Radical One is because it is the de facto Aerial Booster, and so is the most logical thing to note when discussing AB.


@SinfulBliss wrote:

Really, and you believe that lagging another player for 0 recoil damage is how the game is, "meant to be played"? If you want to argue how NFMM was "meant to be played", argue lag. Argue pitch black stages. Argue OP customs. Argue disconnection errors. Argue nuking. Argue driving out of the track. Argue everything. The fact of the matter is, this game is never going to be played how it was meant to be played. The quicker we accept this, the better.
Ah, so you're comparing my issue - which deals with something we control: how we play - to issues that are virtually out of our control (lag is dependent on an individual's connection, and disconnection errors are all dependent on the stability of the server and one's connection)? And also, dealing with OP customs (which, if you haven't noticed, have been virtually eradicated from the game, save for racing OPs), pitch black stages (which can easily be avoided), and nuking (which is inherent in the game itself, online and off, and is also affected by the variable of lag); these are not even comparisons, so I'm not sure how you could make them. And just because "this game is never going to be played how it was meant to be played" does not mean that we should let such obvious violations go unaffected. Case-in-point: True, the game was NEVER meant to be played with cars such as the infamous "Bullet Troller," with ridiculous endurance and nearly universal OHKO ability, but that didn't mean that we had to accept that. The majority of the community rejected it, and it was significantly nerfed.


@SinfulBliss wrote:

I've been an avid R1 user for all my time here since NFM1, so I feel that if anyone needs to defend R1, I should.
And yet you think that R1 stands not a chance versus the other racers without AB? Really? As the self-proclaimed lawyer for R1, surely you are aware that R1 is not simply AB, but much more than that? Have you not tried racing at least once without AB, in the recent past? If you have, then I'm not sure how you could say that can't race for its life without AB. If I were R1, I'd want a new lawyer.

@SinfulBliss wrote:
TL;DR: A "glitch" made part of the game after years of going on no longer can be considered a glitch; rather, it becomes a part of the game itself. The playing field is leveled and has been leveled for a long time. People need to persevere if they desire success.
It is very easy to say that the playing field is leveled and that all is well, because its been like this for so long, right? But have you considered that the only reason that it appears level is because we've been looking at a skew for so long? If you become accustomed to the reality of AB in this game, that does not mean that the playing field is somehow leveled or any more okay.

It's just a sign of complacency.

Sinful, we can continue this debate via PM; I'd like you to pay more attention to the end of this post.

----------------
@Seabiscuit wrote:

but now I am practically forced to use R1 and AB to at least be able to COMPETE.

If you remove such a feature, then there is practically no point of R1 even existing w/o AB.
So basically, without AB, you would find adapting to a world without it rather unsettling? If so, I have solution.

---------------------------
It was an idea that I mentioned above, but I wanted to reiterate here. What I'm basically seeing is that without AB, R1 would be a laughingstock among racers, and would likely fall out of use because of it. While I think that speaks to a larger issue with R1, let's stay on topic with regards to AB.

As SinfulBliss, Seabiscuit and others have noted, removing AB at this point would be counter-intuitive, since it would likely drive a large number of users to race with other cars, basically sending the racing inequality to the opposite spectrum of high-speed racers. With that in mind, I wanted to ask you guys on your opinions that a TF7 teammate voiced on a Facebook post. This teammate, being an F7 user, was also dismayed by the prevalence of AB (and especially, AB abuse) within NFM. He suggested a seemingly sound compromise, one that could introduce a new level of competition into NFM without removing AB at all. I adopted the seemingly sound idea and modified it to something deemed more acceptable, and I am interested in your responses.

For those of us who have tested 10thGrave's NFM2 Version, you may remember the introduction of a "Special" meter, filling up when a person performed stunts, and once full, allowing the user one "special move," such as paralyzing other cars, maximum speed, etc. Basically, a similar "AB Meter" could be introduced. Basically, one's ability to AB could be limited based upon how often they used it, i.e if a user holds down the AB buttons for a certain length of time, their AB meter is directly reduced; too much usage, and it becomes unavailable. The AB capacity could be increased or decreased based upon the stunt stats of the vehicle in question (for example, Radical One would have a longer AB duration ability than say, Sword of Justice, because R1 has a greater stunts stat).

It could be recharged based upon the completion of good stunts, meaning that if you want to AB, you'll have to do more than just a rollspin to utilize your bouncing advantage. This introduces a more interesting factor into a game, as you and your fellow opponents can develop strategies for using AB more efficiently, rather than just blindly abusing it whenever possible. I think this is a reasonable compromise to an issue that has bothered a portion of the community for a time, and I look forward to constructive responses. (I can hear the groans already).


Last edited by Turbo on Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:26 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Seabiscuit
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Sat 16 Nov 2013, 12:42 am

@Turbo wrote:
It was an idea that I mentioned above, but I wanted to reiterate here. What I'm basically seeing is that without AB, R1 would be a laughingstock among racers, and would likely fall out of use because of it. While I think that speaks to a larger issue with R1, let's stay on topic with regards to AB.

As SinfulBliss, Seabiscuit and others have noted, removing AB at this point would be counter-intuitive, since it would likely drive a large number of users to race with other cars, basically sending the racing inequality to the opposite spectrum of high-speed racers. With that in mind, I wanted to ask you guys on your opinions that a TF7 teammate voiced on a Facebook post. This teammate, being an F7 user, was also dismayed by the prevalence of AB (and especially, AB abuse) within NFM. He suggested a seemingly sound compromise, one that could introduce a new level of competition into NFM without removing AB at all. I adopted the seemingly sound idea and modified it to something deemed more acceptable, and I am interested in your responses.

For those of us who have tested 10thGrave's NFM2 Version, you may remember the introduction of a "Special" meter, filling up when a person performed stunts, and once full, allowing the user one "special move," such as paralyzing other cars, maximum speed, etc. Basically, a similar "AB Meter" could be introduced. Basically, one's ability to AB could be limited based upon how often they used it, i.e if a user holds down the AB buttons for a certain length of time, their AB meter is directly reduced; too much usage, and it becomes unavailable. The AB capacity could be increased or decreased based upon the stunt stats of the vehicle in question (for example, Radical One would have a longer AB duration ability than say, Sword of Justice, because R1 has a greater stunts stat).

It could be recharged based upon the completion of good stunts, meaning that if you want to AB, you'll have to do more than just a rollspin to utilize your bouncing advantage. This introduces a more interesting factor into a game, as you and your fellow opponents can develop strategies for using AB more efficiently, rather than just blindly abusing it whenever possible. I think this is a reasonable compromise to an issue that has bothered a portion of the community for a time, and I look forward to constructive responses. (I can hear the groans already).
In other words, nitro, but instead it's AB. Hmmm...kudos to you because this idea lit my mind up in places it never was lit before Smile It is plausible to incorporate such a feature, but first you'll have get the gratitude and further acknowledgement from the NFM community for which, I doubt, will end in the way you'd want it to end. I doubt that the majority would vote for this factor, since most of the community are, unfortunately, R1 users and/or predominant AB (ab)users.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Sat 16 Nov 2013, 5:29 am

Well, coming from a player that is experienced with non-AB cars and a few AB cars, I have a neutral stand point concerning Aerial Boosting. It was a "mistake" by the creator of the game without him knowing; it has been eluded since NFM1, but we didn't know that until Aerial Boosting became more pronounced internationally when players started using it.

Now, my view concerning this is that it shouldn't be removed. Why not remove it? Simple, it is part of the gameplay of this "mad" and "crazy" game. Removing it would change the gameplay; even if most of us never knew about AB until it was exploited or we was told how to perform it, it would still change. In all honesty, Aerial Boosting has been proven to be useful in racing and wasting (to a lesser extend). In fact, people can use this so called "glitch" as a strategy, and to eventually develop more tactical strategies while improving your technique for Aerial Boosting.
Radical One may be the only car that benefit from it competitively, but there are other cars in the game that benefit from it that allows them to keep up with faster cars than them.

However, Aerial Boosting can be the enemy of a game and could cause you to get left behind the other racers.
For example: You're a R1 on Confusion In An Illusion with M8s and a single F7. You're close to the leading M8 until you try to AB in front of him, but instead you hit him on accident which causes you to spin out for a few seconds and get left behind.

I'm being lenient on AB because it does have a purpose, despite me not always coming to agreement with all out AB/bouncing. I never thought it should've been removed, but it should be altered. I think it would be better if Aerial Boosting (and bouncing) would not freeze the power meter until you land. Instead, your power will decend more quickly than usual (maybe 2x the speed of the regular power loss for that certain car), or the power loss could be determined by the cars' stunt physics (or stat bar). The better the aerial control and flip speed for that car, the higher the power loss for that individual car, where as the worse the aerial control and flip speed are, the less power a car would lose. This idea would (hopefully) make the game more balanced than it is now. Then again, maybe it wouldn't help the controversy.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Sun 17 Nov 2013, 4:31 am

In response to Turbo:

Spoiler:
 
-------------------------

Now, for the topic at hand.

We all have a common purpose in mind, make NFMM a better game. It seems pointless to argue when we all basically have the same goal. I have many qualms with this idea; however, I will write them in list form as opposed to arguing them:

  • Physics are already bad enough; with your idea, a MASHEEN would have the ability to AB and bounce.

  • It takes the uniqueness out of R1

  • It gives virtually every car some kind of advantage EXCEPT R1, who takes a massive hit from this. So much for "evening the field".

  • R1 already has it rough holding its own with the big 3, making ABing one of its main survival techniques. You inhibit this, and now R1's wasting ability is also hindered.

  • Your argument is "either everyone has it, or no one has it". Last I checked, NFMM didn't go by such communistic ideas. I especially dislike this argument because it sounds rather immature. "If I can't have it, no one can!". Some cars have advantages others don't. You'll just have to get used to that.


    Now, those were the more philosophical and R1-based issues with this idea. I do find it is valid to base some points off of R1; after all, R1 is the one effected by this most (and negatively, at that).

    The technical issues with this idea have not yet been addressed.


  • The speed of an AB depends on the speed of the car by which the AB is carried out. There isn't some "universal AB speed". Because of this, F7 would have an insanely OP AB (even if volatile). M8 would also AB much quicker than the rest.

  • El Kings and MASHEENs would be able to dodge hits by bouncing over incoming cars. I won't argue physics, as that is a more philosophical aspect in NFMM; however, this would tilt the playing field significantly if anything would.

  • There are numerous possible glitches that could result from such an in-depth edit, yet wasn't this idea meant for the very purpose of "fixing" a glitch? This seems rather counter-intuitive.

  • Hypergliding + AB = Utter destruction for racers

  • Too much. NFMM already requires paying massive attention, what with your power, damage, car, stunts, and any wasters (Z and X) being variables one must constantly be thinking about. Adding yet another factor (in this case, an "AB" bar) would be over the top. Does anyone recall what happened when Omar added trees, rocks, and cacti? Everyone despised them, and they were taken out of games as fast as they were put in. Why is this, though? Simple: NFMM is maxed out as far as factors to worry about are concerned. Add this, and it is likely to meet the same fate as scenery did.

  • This point goes along with the above. The idea of an AB bar will cause more wastes due to distraction, and consequently, less wastes due to skill. How many times are people type-hit? It seems like almost every game there's somebody complaining about being hit while typing. If people are looking at their AB-bar more than their power bar and the chat combined, I have a feeling "idle-hit" will be a newly coined term for NFMM. While in a perfect world this idea adds great strategy to the game, in reality no one can be constantly looking at their AB-bar enough to make good use of any possible strategy involved.

  • Can Omar even do this? That is, is this idea even feasible? An "AB" isn't exactly a defined variable in the coding. Can Omar really manipulate it to the extent that your idea requires? If he can't even do it, we're all just talking in the optative.

While NFMM philosophy can be argued and debated, the technical aspects effecting this idea are rather hard to avoid.


Now, I also saw AB's idea, and I felt like that needed to be addressed too (if this post wasn't already long enough). I actually think this is a cool sounding idea, but I don't think it should be implemented due to a couple of concerns I have with it:

  • One will have virtually no power at all when landing from long-range AB or bouncing.

  • Utilizing AB to stunt becomes counter-productive (IE: drilling).


Yours and Turbo's idea alike both have the potential of adding great strategy to the game. However, they are likely to become more of a nuisance for people than an addition in strategy. Simply put, there are better ways to add competitiveness to the game.


If you read my wall of Christmas-tree-text to here, congratulations. Just my 2 cents Razz.



~Bliss
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Sun 17 Nov 2013, 5:27 am

I must agree with SB's last post.

I think it should either be completely removed or keeped the way it is. And as much as i would love it to be removed i would hate having a new stat bar with AB which will make all the cars be able to spam it.



And SB, R1 DOES have a good chance against M8's and F7's WITHOUT the AB as a person who most of his multiplayer playing times comes from the old times of NFMM i do remember R1 M8 and F7 being completly balanced, and people arguing every day about which of them is the best racer.
Now? you got R1 completely OP on stages like gun run or stretch, while on stages like dances with monsters and four diamantional vertigo are balanced, so overall R1 IS a better racer. that's how i see it.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Sun 17 Nov 2013, 5:34 pm

@Radical24 wrote:
And SB, R1 DOES have a good chance against M8's and F7's WITHOUT the AB as a person who most of his multiplayer playing times comes from the old times of NFMM i do remember R1 M8 and F7 being completly balanced, and people arguing every day about which of them is the best racer.
Now? you got R1 completely OP on stages like gun run or stretch, while on stages like dances with monsters and four diamantional vertigo are balanced, so overall R1 IS a better racer. that's how i see it.
Even in the very beginning of multiplayer, people knew about AB. People argued about which was the best racer even with AB. It's true that stages like Ghosts and Magic, Gun Run, and Fast + Furious R1 rules the game. However, there are also stages where F7s and M8s rule the game. One prime example is Centrifugal Rush, where R1 actually has a disadvantage. Also, Majestic Duty is slightly tilted in F7's/M8's favor. Drigger's Revenge is also in M8's and F7's favor. It all depends on the stage.

Even with AB, I feel that R1 is even with racers. Although, F7 is a class C car, so it's not like it's unfair that F7 loses to R1 more often.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Sun 17 Nov 2013, 6:12 pm

@SinfulBliss wrote:
@Radical24 wrote:
And SB, R1 DOES have a good chance against M8's and F7's WITHOUT the AB as a person who most of his multiplayer playing times comes from the old times of NFMM i do remember R1 M8 and F7 being completly balanced, and people arguing every day about which of them is the best racer.
Now? you got R1 completely OP on stages like gun run or stretch, while on stages like dances with monsters and four diamantional vertigo are balanced, so overall R1 IS a better racer. that's how i see it.
Even in the very beginning of multiplayer, people knew about AB. People argued about which was the best racer even with AB. It's true that stages like Ghosts and Magic, Gun Run, and Fast + Furious R1 rules the game. However, there are also stages where F7s and M8s rule the game. One prime example is Centrifugal Rush, where R1 actually has a disadvantage. Also, Majestic Duty is slightly tilted in F7's/M8's favor. Drigger's Revenge is also in M8's and F7's favor. It all depends on the stage.

Even with AB, I feel that R1 is even with racers. Although, F7 is a class C car, so it's not like it's unfair that F7 loses to R1 more often.
Those stages are almost primarily used as "both" stages and when there are wasters R1 is still always be the best choice, for those stages.. as long as there are wasters which normally there is.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Mon 18 Nov 2013, 11:48 pm

Pause.

While I like the ideas that AB and I presented above, and somewhat accept Sinful's portrayal of some specific points, I don't think it'll go anywhere.

I was scrolling through the NFM Steam Greenlight page, where I stumbled upon this

"Glitches were left unfixed intentionally to give it a spicy unique feel (glitches that added value to the gameplay). "
- Omar Waly, bottom section of the Greenlight Page (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=160445351)

Yeah, it doesn't look like he'd change it even if our argument was convincing. Oh well.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Mon 18 Nov 2013, 11:51 pm

You never know though, after all, it is his decision.

Another good idea was to disable it for a week for a test and see what happens
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Tue 19 Nov 2013, 2:54 am

@Turbo wrote:
"Glitches were left unfixed intentionally to give it a spicy unique feel (glitches that added value to the gameplay). "
- Omar Waly, bottom section of the Greenlight Page (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=160445351)

Yeah, it doesn't look like he'd change it even if our argument was convincing. Oh well.
Does AB "add value" to the gameplay? According to your argument it doesn't, so who knows? If you show Omar how AB isn't adding any value, rather, lessening value, you could still get it changed.

Although, I still have to say it'd be a pain for him to do it even if he wanted to.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Tue 19 Nov 2013, 2:01 pm

[note: this is a rant take it how you want, zero offense to anyone mentioned]

:/ this post sickens me, turbo defending people that dosnt like the fact that they cant keep up with someone that Abs, and bless, thats wanting it so he can keep his skills over r1. -.- ~sigh~

1st. off Sin i NEVER KNEW how to ab, and i was amazing user with r1, crushing nearly anybody, WITHOUT AB, beating f7's and m8's with ease. at that time i didnt have much......."rep" if you will, at this time, hardly anybody even cared. prayers, kitty, and some others know of my skill of my past, ( kitty has videos of my past , as well as loaf) list of all recored videos of me using r1 keep in mind i didnt know how to use ab:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKmvcvcah9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZUr8nRMiEo( 3 cheakpoint lead without ab)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiWfPzBBXac( trying to keep up with kitty, but failing cause of her use of ab, and my lack of knowing how to do ab)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mioA1AQQp5Y( 1st ever recording of me, this was before i met kitty, before i even begun to understand what lag was, before TI was made, everything)

all of these videos show me either losing due to ab, or wining WITHOUT ab, USING R1. now, some time past and i started seen prayers, and kitty and everyone else using "Ab" i was one of the few who had zero idea how, and i wanted to know because i felt noobish, i felt like i wasnt as good as kitty or prayers, but they told me that i was good because i DIDNT use it and still won races, saying that if i learned and mastered it id be unstoppable. i should of listen to them and gave up. cause now that i know how to use ab, i dispise of it. so many people use r1 now, and it makes this game unfair. EVEN with custom cars, r1 is still no match if someone ab abuses. i know i was the only person to have a custom full racer with less stunt than f7 :/ when the car maker came out.

now, back to my reason why ab should be removed. In NFM( not NFMM) like turbo stated, bots are not programmed to use ab, its a community found glitch( AND it is a glitch, again as turbo posted by omar,---->Glitches<---- were left unfixed intentionally to give it a spicy unique feel ), But the basic rule of NFM is to waste/race agisnt the boss car for 2 stages to win the car. NOW TAKE THIS INTO THOUGHT. if the bots DID use ab. r1 would be nearly IMPOSSIBLE to beat in SP on gun run. :/ now tell me, how much fun it is losing over and over again, people would be outraged, that they couldnt beatt this bouncing, gliding, furious car, even in stage 8 NFM1, you would lose constantly if the bot r1 ab'ed. without KK, theres no way in hell you would even be able to out race r1. now put that into consideration and tell me how bad that would be to lose over and over again in a place with NO LAGG, people wouldnt want to play the game let alone go to multiplayer due to the sheer fear of someone using an r1 and completely destorying the other racers. Now, where would we be in NFMM, if very few people registerd? But i know what your thinking fellow reader, "oh your just blowing smoke up ur butox, people play many games online without going to SP" but when Multiplayer wasnt made, when it was only NFM1. would you of really stayed with NFM if you couldnt get past an annoying ab abusing r1? idk about you, but id quit after the 100th time of failing.

now look at how multiplayer is. every pro in Multiplayer knows ab, knows how to use it very well, but what about those that dont know how to use it? tell me how many people are active on NFMM right now? 50?....60? out of HOW MANY? and im not talking just about the registerd people im aslo talking about the people without full accounts, the total number of active people on NFM has dropped in the two years, because of pros destorying the fun for the people wanting to learn, if knowlage is power, why do pros have the power to make people "rage quit" the game by abing threw the whole dam stage?. call me a hater, call me what ever you freaking want but i believe that ab is making this game fail. EPICLY. less people sign on everyday, updates taking long and longer to be made,( no offense to omar but i know how online games work. if less money is flowing threw, updates and other content is delayed or takes longer to release.) and less people are re-registering. this game is becoming less fun, and i point my finger, at the ab users. every last one of them.

aslo to those that are gonna say "OH BUT YOU AB YOU HYPOCRIT" :l i dont anymore, i use it less and less once i found out this AWESOME. ask anybody thats seen me the past few days, what car do i use more often now. its my 1st car i posted on NFM, my hotwheels car with less stunt than f7, so low thats its near impossible to glide or ab, im using a masheen like stunt, and winning. i dont join rooms anymore with people that abuse ab. turbo has seen this. i simply just avoid or leave the room and chill with people that dont know how to use it because its ruining my gaming experances, its destorying my love for this game. i have nothing aginst turbo or anybody, i dont hold grudges aginst people. i just dont like the fact that fellow players, are destorying this game from the inside. im gonna end my rant with this:

one of the smartest person in the world once said that the definion of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results ~quote albert einstein.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Fri 22 Nov 2013, 3:06 am

I agree, every race i go into, it's all long drawn out stages that require ABing and bouncing to even get through it fast, or long jumps that require AB, and it's unfair to people who use, say F7, M8, or use generally low stunting cars, (Which is actually quite rare since everyone i see now is using high stunting cars.) Now i don't have a problem with ABing, but i do have a problem with everyone using it during "RACING". I used to use it, but still failed often because i could never get it right, not due to skill, but to lack of understanding of why it was worth using it to begin with.
Now i have reworked my custom cars into pure racing machines that cannot AB or Bounce, and now i can race the right way and still win without much problem. The only thing now is that during long straightaways, someone ABing or bouncing, bounces right in front of me and knocks me off the track, acting like it's a sport, and this has happened on many... MANY occasions, and i'm tired of it. I'm tired of unfair racing, high stunting, AB abusing, Bounce abusing, people and cars in NFMM. That's why I always go on so many hiatuses, to get away from all the stupid things that drive me away from the game. The only reason i still come on here is because of the friend's I've made over the past 2 years and i am grateful for that.
But Zero is right, this overused abusive glitch it ruining the game from the inside out, and no one except a few others' actually cares.


Last edited by RBD18 on Fri 22 Nov 2013, 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Derp Grammar)
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Sat 23 Nov 2013, 8:07 pm

Zero: In the first video, the only reason Mattman came out successful was because the rest of the cars got smashed around the stage. Note that everyone had at least 40-50% except Mattman, who had 0%.

In the second video of Kitty, she did use AB. She just used it less. I'm guessing this is because she's so used to M8. She would have won if she hadn't been attacked by a bunch of cars. Again, notice the only reason bloodycoco came out successful was because he got by without damage.

Third video, I have to agree. AB rules the game in these kinds of stages. Like I said, you'll get crushed without AB with R1. Although, notice how the winner of this video is, again, someone with 0% damage.

I've seen plenty of R1 AB'ers get destroyed by non-AB'ing M8's and F7's. I've even seen some get lapped. Saying an R1 with AB is "unbeatable" is just incorrect.

The fact that bots don't use AB is not any argument. Bots also generally don't take the "quick side" of ramps, or waste correctly, or bad land stunt either. Does that mean that if bots don't do it, we shouldn't? Not at all. NFM1/NFM2 is completely different from NFMM. If CPU's AB'd, it would seriously have hurt the players of NFM1/NFM2 (not because AB is unfair, but because in NFM1/NFM2 you would have been forced to play an AB'ing R1 on an AB'ing stage with KK), I agree, but in NFMM people have AB'd for around a year now, and no one has quit and "given up". They persevered.

Zero wrote:
now look at how multiplayer is. every pro in Multiplayer knows ab, knows how to use it very well, but what about those that dont know how to use it? tell me how many people are active on NFMM right now? 50?....60? out of HOW MANY? and im not talking just about the registerd people im aslo talking about the people without full accounts, the total number of active people on NFM has dropped in the two years, because of pros destorying the fun for the people wanting to learn, if knowlage is power, why do pros have the power to make people "rage quit" the game by abing threw the whole dam stage?. call me a hater, call me what ever you freaking want but i believe that ab is making this game fail. EPICLY. less people sign on everyday, updates taking long and longer to be made,( no offense to omar but i know how online games work. if less money is flowing threw, updates and other content is delayed or takes longer to release.) and less people are re-registering. this game is becoming less fun, and i point my finger, at the ab users. every last one of them.
This entire paragraph is just not true. The number of players has dropped because of LOSS OF INTEREST, not because of butthurt children crying about losing on Fast and Furious to some R1. "updates taking long and longer to be made"... How does AB even effect this? ._. Updates take longer because they've been getting more in-depth and harder to program. They've always taken long, anyway.

FYI, when Turbo uses R1 he uses AB. Any sane person would. Protesting against AB by boycotting it won't do anything, it'll just get you to lose more matches and become even more angry. What say you learn how to AB better? You know why the people who are pros at using AB aren't against it? Maybe if you became a pro at AB'ing, you too wouldn't mind it so much. If you're having trouble, shoot me a PM and I'll do my best to help.

The fact is, lots of the people against AB are only against it because the car they're using doesn't have it, or they don't know how to use it and get frustrated that they're getting beaten.


Just enjoy NFMM. AB shouldn't ruin it for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Mon 25 Nov 2013, 2:14 am

Sin, you put up one heck of a point, but it has at least 1 hole.

1. Yes, about 73% of the people who still play the game use AB to their will, and they have gotten good at it. But there is a percentage of that remaining 27% who doesn't AB or doesn't know how. I'm part of that 27%, not the part that doesn't know how, but the part that is tired of using it constantly. I will admit, it was fun, but it is overused constantly in about everything. Everyone has their own opinion on this topic, and it will be argued, just like it has been for over a year now.
AB ruins it for me because i enjoy a good, fair, clean race. There was one sentence in my post saying that on AB dominant courses, there is always someone who bounces in front of me just for the sole purpose of spinning me into a wall, or bounces on a long straight just to keep power and leaves others in the dust. How is that considered fun when any one person just cares about winning? You can argue and say that it's in good fun. Well for you, it is, but for others? No It's Not, it's not fun... it's annoying how people take pride in an over-abused game breaking glitch.
Okay, i will admit that yes i did use AB a lot at one point. But like i said i got tired of it. It took, (for me), the fun out of a lot of matches i was in, so i stopped using it altogether. Every custom car i have in my account now cannot AB or bounce.
There was one point that i can agree with: It is possible to still win against an ABer, but they still have an air advantage over a less stunted powerful car.
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SinfulBliss
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Mon 25 Nov 2013, 2:29 am

First of all, those statistics aren't accurate. I'm assuming they're coming from the poll, where only 18 people voted out of, what, 4000 on NFMM? Sure, it may be overused, just like lag is overused. The thing is, it's necessary now. It's part of the game, it's no longer a "glitch" per say. Racing without AB with a car that has AB would be handicapping yourself for no reason.

While an AB'er has an advantage in the air, a car that doesn't have AB (assuming it's the same class) has it's stats distributed elsewhere. For example, F7 cannot AB, but instead, its "Speed" stat is significantly higher than R1 and other AB'ers. There's always a trade-off.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Mon 25 Nov 2013, 4:07 am

...or you could just play Need for Speed, Blur, F-Zero GX, Gran Turismo, Burnout, Forza, etc.

If you don't want people landing on you from AB'ing, there's the X&Z keys which allow you to, frankly, look back and see if anyone has their bounce-AB line aimed into you position, then you could calmly move to the side and allow them to pass. Then possibly overtake them in other parts where they don't AB, say you're using F7 and an R1 flies past you. The stage you're in has a long straight away, and then numerous turning points with small ramps and less area to AB, then you can catch up, or possibly overtake them at the turns given your high speed and high grip and turning sensitivity.

That's the way I see it when I'm using Mn, yes I don't use R1 ALL THE TIME as many people think I do. There's also a really good perk pertaining to opponent R1's when you're M8 or F7 and with low damage. Just drive into their puncture, and that should send you flying THROUGH them (so spinning them out and possibly nuking them), with tremendous speed forward. I've seen Turbo, and any other heavily predominant F7 users use this tactic quite often in stages like Paninaro, Caninaro, Let's Fly!, Fast and the Furious + The Radical, Ghost and Magic, Maximum Overfly (some areas), and Gun Run.

If that's still a problem for you, just play with certain people in which you trust whom won't AB or would use AB-less cars. OR, if you're lucky, just make Class B/C games since most cars in that rank don't AB (unless custom) and hope people would join your games and actually RACE rather than giving up and wasting which is what many people do now-a-days. That's just my tip, or master R1 and Aerial Boosting overall.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Mon 25 Nov 2013, 5:23 am

I refuse to use R1, i dont just hate its stat and physics setup, but i cant stand the way the car looks.
And by the way dude, i know about the z and x keys for the camera, and i play flatout, need for speed, and burnout. Nfmm isnt the only racing game i play.

Sin, like you have proper statistics? I wasnt going off the poll, i was thinking of everyone who still plays today. Besides i dont need to use a high stunt powered car for everything i do. I can do just fine without them.
You arent changing my opinion about this, as well as im not changing yours. And lag is in every online game ever made, the ability to glide isnt. Dont try and change the subject.
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PostSubject: Re: Ye Olde Aerial Boost   Fri 29 Nov 2013, 12:24 pm

I think the best way here to make both sides happy is to remove bouncing and keep gliding, bouncing seems so broken to me and is what makes R1 so good in racing, i think with only gliding R1 would have a great chance against M8 and F7 but not too OP at that
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