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 NFM Speedrunning

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SinfulBliss
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 3:30 am

rafa1231518 wrote:
well it's still pretty shit to have to click several times before getting to write a post. i think there should be a place to get instant feedback considering ip has stated many times over the forums should not be used for IMs.

i went ahead and made a discord: https://discord.gg/5kQNPSe

if you could add it to the main post thatd be cool.

I just keep the topic open and refresh when a notification pops up, fairly quick. Nevertheless, Updated

Also, the rule you're referring to is and it's not referring to high-quality back-and-forth discussion, just meaningless "chatter" usually 5 words or less.
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rafa1231518
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 3:31 am

SinfulBliss wrote:
rafa1231518 wrote:
well it's still pretty shit to have to click several times before getting to write a post. i think there should be a place to get instant feedback considering ip has stated many times over the forums should not be used for IMs.

i went ahead and made a discord: https://discord.gg/5kQNPSe

if you could add it to the main post thatd be cool.

I just keep the topic open and refresh when a notification pops up, fairly quick. Nevertheless, Updated

Also, the rule you're referring to is and it's not referring to high-quality back-and-forth discussion, just meaningless "chatter" usually 5 words or less.

i don't think what we're doing necessarily counts as 'high-quality' but i think it's up to you

side note: mr. Q beat your WR you can't just let that slide pal
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 3:34 am

rafa1231518 wrote:
SinfulBliss wrote:
rafa1231518 wrote:
well it's still pretty shit to have to click several times before getting to write a post. i think there should be a place to get instant feedback considering ip has stated many times over the forums should not be used for IMs.

i went ahead and made a discord: https://discord.gg/5kQNPSe

if you could add it to the main post thatd be cool.

I just keep the topic open and refresh when a notification pops up, fairly quick. Nevertheless, Updated

Also, the rule you're referring to is and it's not referring to high-quality back-and-forth discussion, just meaningless "chatter" usually 5 words or less.

i don't think what we're doing necessarily counts as 'high-quality' but i think it's up to you

side note: mr. Q beat your WR you can't just let that slide pal

Letting it slide is exactly what I've been doing... Little does he know his record is but an illusion.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 4:00 am

i've been working on a framerate/speedup-independent recording tool for nfmm (and potentially the nfm1 wrapper if i can get it right), any suggestions other than the obvious?

edit: as it turns out making fast and reliable screen recording software is harder than i expected
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 6:08 am

rafa1231518 wrote:
i've been working on a framerate/speedup-independent recording tool for nfmm (and potentially the nfm1 wrapper if i can get it right), any suggestions other than the obvious?

edit: as it turns out making fast and reliable screen recording software is harder than i expected

For the recorder itself or for the client as a whole?
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 6:31 am

SinfulBliss wrote:
rafa1231518 wrote:
i've been working on a framerate/speedup-independent recording tool for nfmm (and potentially the nfm1 wrapper if i can get it right), any suggestions other than the obvious?

edit: as it turns out making fast and reliable screen recording software is harder than i expected

For the recorder itself or for the client as a whole?

Yes.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 6:54 am

rafa1231518 wrote:
SinfulBliss wrote:
rafa1231518 wrote:
i've been working on a framerate/speedup-independent recording tool for nfmm (and potentially the nfm1 wrapper if i can get it right), any suggestions other than the obvious?

edit: as it turns out making fast and reliable screen recording software is harder than i expected

For the recorder itself or for the client as a whole?

Yes.

For the recorder, perhaps an option to save replays from games into some sort of vault which likely only NFM can read.

For the client as a whole, perhaps greater customization ability. If it's unhackable, the ability to hack it within the confines of the client would help immensely. IE,

  • Ability to change car color.

  • Ability to choose which CPUs are in a stage (obviously this would be separate from runs -- I'm talking some sort of sandbox mode). The ability to choose the AIs one plays against would be phenomenal training for actual runs. Also opens the door to even more obscure run challenges, like all-monstaa game runs, F7 survival, etc.

  • Fast reset button (to lock all cars/tracks without closing, changing user.data, and reopening).

  • Invincible cars reflecting damage, so that games can go on forever but you can still "waste," just without the opponent ever truly dying. Damage could be reflected in percentage exceeding far beyond 100 at times, or maybe in talleys/lives (ie, once the car gets to 200%, two talleys are marked down). Useful for grinding.

  • True sandbox mode; the ability to pause the game and actually edit on the fly. Reposition the cars, angle them, change their damage, laps, speed, even momentum, direction etc. That sounds a bit too ambitious to me though, I can't imagine the difficulty of such a hack. Would be incredibly useful for setting up complex positions and playing them, testing techniques or observed phenomena and pretty much setting up an NFM-physics laboratory.

  • Ability to adjust cars' stats on the game itself. For example I could lower the grip of R1 to practice a track, then greatly heighten it and try the track again. Good for adapting to the sudden grip changes from F7 to R1, I know it trips people up on speedruns. Of course we wouldn't want people editing stats and then speedrunning, so perhaps an actual speedrun option in-game which forces usage of default stats for that given playthrough of NFM would be necessary. An easier workaround could be the absence or presence of a special, small, unobtrusive symbol in a corner of the NFM window, depending on whether or not any stats have been edited.


Of course I am just listing some things that I could fathom, where both the limits of NFM's code and your proficiency in Java isn't accounted for.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 7:02 am

SinfulBliss wrote:
rafa1231518 wrote:
SinfulBliss wrote:
rafa1231518 wrote:
i've been working on a framerate/speedup-independent recording tool for nfmm (and potentially the nfm1 wrapper if i can get it right), any suggestions other than the obvious?

edit: as it turns out making fast and reliable screen recording software is harder than i expected

For the recorder itself or for the client as a whole?

Yes.

For the recorder, perhaps an option to save replays from games into some sort of vault which likely only NFM can read.

i've already done that! a long time ago, in fact. hell, NFM even does it internally since NFM1, how do you think Instant Replay works?

SinfulBliss wrote:
Ability to change car color.
will do!

SinfulBliss wrote:
Ability to choose which CPUs are in a stage (obviously this would be separate from runs -- I'm talking some sort of sandbox mode). The ability to choose the AIs one plays against would be phenomenal training for actual runs. Also opens the door to even more obscure run challenges, like all-monstaa game runs, F7 survival, etc.
sure!

SinfulBliss wrote:
Fast reset button (to lock all cars without closing, changing user.data, and reopening).
Simple enough!

SinfulBliss wrote:
Invincible cars reflecting damage, so that games can go on forever but you can still "waste," just without the opponent ever truly dying. Damage could be reflected in percentage exceeding far beyond 100 at times, or maybe in talleys/lives (ie, once the car gets to 200%, two talleys are marked down). Useful for grinding.
...sure?

SinfulBliss wrote:
True sandbox mode; the ability to pause the game and actually edit on the fly. Reposition the cars, angle them, change their damage, laps, speed, even momentum, direction etc. That sounds a bit too ambitious to me though, I can't imagine the difficulty of such a hack. Would be incredibly useful for setting up complex positions and playing them, testing techniques or observed phenomena and pretty much setting up an NFM-physics laboratory.
that sounds like it would be really fucking boring and tedious to make, so no

SinfulBliss wrote:
Ability to adjust cars' stats on the game itself.
no! no! are you insane? so much for being 'hackproof', if we give the hackers the fucking scaffolding then suddenly cheating simply becomes a matter of looking for a boolean in Cheat Engine.

SinfulBliss wrote:
special, small, unobtrusive symbol
read: easy to edit in with video editing software

SinfulBliss wrote:
and your level of Java
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 7:12 am

rafa1231518 wrote:

no! no! are you insane? so much for being 'hackproof', if we give the hackers the fucking scaffolding then suddenly cheating simply becomes a matter of looking for a boolean in Cheat Engine.
Is there no way to make a controlled method of editing values?

rafa1231518 wrote:

read: easy to edit in with video editing software
That's true, however some sort of mechanism that matches up your current settings with the default would do the trick.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 8:22 am

SinfulBliss wrote:
Is there no way to make a controlled method of editing values?

any kind of truth or boolean function that can be simplified to "fixed state TRUE" and "fixed state FALSE" is vulnerable regardless of how many cycles occur during state change.

basically, i'm not gonna add it because i don't feel like it and doing SRC's stat editor was already one too fucking many
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 1:36 pm

SinfulBliss wrote:
I think it's good to keep it public in case someone wants to join. After all, you scared off SheppardKillerYT so now it's just me and Qazedt running. Interested to see if one of the competitive racers joins and how they fare.

I'm still doing a few runs now and then, mostly for fun/practice. I'm busy with school and shit right now but in like a months time once I'm finished, I'll be fully active and hopefully recording some runs.

A discord group would be nice, people can always post on here and ask to be added.

Also I notice NFM2 is not getting much Speedrunning love. Is that because you guys find it's just too long to complete a satisfactory run? In some ways I actually prefer NFM2 to NFM1, so that may be what I focus on running in the future.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 2:03 pm

Enigma wrote:

Also I notice NFM2 is not getting much Speedrunning love. Is that because you guys find it's just too long to complete a satisfactory run? In some ways I actually prefer NFM2 to NFM1, so that may be what I focus on running in the future.

Yeah, it's a good bit longer so speedruns are harder to repeat on it. That really isn't my reason for not running it though -- I still think the NFM1 time is far from reaching a plateau.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 6:43 pm

Well, I gave up running the game for now but now you added those challenge categories I will check those out. I been sick since Friday and I still have some of the effects but it's not as bad but I been focusing on Counter-Strike and other titles I normally play besides NFM. My last day of school is apparently June 8th, so, I have less than a month of school and I'll be fucking out of it for the next 3 months to finally do a shit ton more than what I wanted to do since school is fucking me hard on gaming a lot longer. I will do NFM Speedrunning if I feel like it but it doesn't mean I'm really done... my laptop though is still fucked so AB might be dead for me and no I don't do autohotkeys for keybinds if that's what one of you was gonna suggest. The no spacebar presses one seems very tedious to do but then again there's the perfect ramp executions that're there as alternatives to gain power in the run itself so we'll see where that goes.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 10:17 pm

is it possible to beat the game using a different car every time, save for the last stage? that could be a cool challenge
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 10:32 pm

rafa1231518 wrote:
is it possible to beat the game using a different car every time, save for the last stage? that could be a cool challenge

Yeah, 10 cars so that's plausible. Sounds like a decent challenge to me.

---

SinfulBliss wrote:
rafa1231518 wrote:
is it possible to beat the game using a different car every time, save for the last stage? that could be a cool challenge

Yeah, 10 cars so that's plausible. Sounds like a decent challenge to me.

SheppardKillerYT wrote:
-snip-

Well, guess it's just me and Qaze then. You know, if you feel like it's hard to improve it's probably your route itself that needs to change. I wouldn't sweat the little mistakes.


Last edited by SinfulBliss on Wed 10 May 2017, 1:19 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 11:24 pm

here's a 240p extremely low bitrate video showing off the development progress on the client.



i've done a lot of work on the backend: the two lines at the top of the screen are the checksum which is encrypted. if cheats are detected it won't show up. it's also written to a file called securityFile.txt, so you just upload that to pastebin, link to it in a run and i (since i'm the only one who has the private key) will decrypt and verify it.

there's also three timers, which follow the new rules (but dont end properly yet)
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Tue 09 May 2017, 11:27 pm

rafa1231518 wrote:
is it possible to beat the game using a different car every time, save for the last stage? that could be a cool challenge

That was literally what I was about to suggest. Spooky. It also works for NFM2; 16 cars, 16 stages (not including mad party).
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Wed 10 May 2017, 1:21 am

rafa1231518 wrote:
here's a 240p extremely low bitrate video showing off the development progress on the client.



i've done a lot of work on the backend: the two lines at the top of the screen are the checksum which is encrypted. if cheats are detected it won't show up. it's also written to a file called securityFile.txt, so you just upload that to pastebin, link to it in a run and i (since i'm the only one who has the private key) will decrypt and verify it.

there's also three timers, which follow the new rules (but dont end properly yet)

Wait, didn't you tell me a visual marker proving someone isn't hacking can just be thwarted by a video editing software?

IE - Play legit, screenie the checksum, play with a hacked client, record, edit on the checksum.

Also, is it going to stay for the whole run? Might affect visibility a bit. Will make me feel like a l33t h4x0r using it thought.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Wed 10 May 2017, 2:00 am

SinfulBliss wrote:
Wait, didn't you tell me a visual marker proving someone isn't hacking can just be thwarted by a video editing software?
yes, that's why i made the checksum have distinct but absoultely defined, non-random colors so it's easy to identify but hard to fake because the colors would be wrong, or the font, or the position etc. it's still not the 'unhackable dream' but it's very bulletproof.

SinfulBliss wrote:
IE - Play legit, screenie the checksum, play with a hacked client, record, edit on the checksum.
even then i can easily decrypt the checksum and tell that the runs don't match. i'm a smart boy i tell you.

SinfulBliss wrote:
Also, is it going to stay for the whole run?
yes otherwise you could just record part of it legit and splice the other half with hacked footage!

SinfulBliss wrote:
Might affect visibility a bit.
eh you get used to it
maybe i'll change the position or something, we'll figure it out when i release it proper


side note again i've been polishing up the backend and fixed some crippling bugs in the client, also i removed some debugging code so it should run faster now.
i also made the stage select show which cars appear in a race. it's not cheating because its no different from pulling up a google docs chart with a list of which cars appear in which race basically.
i also fixed the car select glitch. however this means taht the runs on my client might be a few millis faster than runs on the real client. if this is a problem to anyone, i can add an artificial timer, so do tell me if that's a concern.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Wed 10 May 2017, 2:51 am

rafa1231518 wrote:
yes otherwise you could just record part of it legit and splice the other half with hacked footage!

What if instead of showing the checksum when the user didn't hack, you only showed it when there were hacks? They couldn't splice shit then, because there'd be a large checksum text on their entire hacked run.

Or perhaps simply locking the ability to speedrun while hacks are detected. Allow the player to do everything else, just not speedrun.

rafa1231518 wrote:
i also made the stage select show which cars appear in a race. it's not cheating because its no different from pulling up a google docs chart with a list of which cars appear in which race basically.

Aren't the cars that appear in a race just all the cars you have unlocked, plus the boss? Or do you mean the specific 4 that will appear.

rafa1231518 wrote:
i also fixed the car select glitch. however this means taht the runs on my client might be a few millis faster than runs on the real client. if this is a problem to anyone, i can add an artificial timer, so do tell me if that's a concern.

No big deal right now because speedruns are usually 10-20 seconds apart (barring the current #1 and #2, but they won't be so close for long Wink.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Wed 10 May 2017, 3:57 am

SinfulBliss wrote:
What if instead of showing the checksum when the user didn't hack
then the hacker simply disables that flag, which sounds a lot easier doesn't it?

SinfulBliss wrote:
Or perhaps simply locking the ability to speedrun while hacks are detected.
see above, i guess

rafa1231518 wrote:
i also made the stage select show which cars appear in a race. it's not cheating because its no different from pulling up a google docs chart with a list of which cars appear in which race basically.

SinfulBliss wrote:
Aren't the cars that appear in a race just all the cars you have unlocked, plus the boss?
unless it's stage 1/stage 2 and you've completed the game up to El King (the formation for those two seems to stay), or unless it's any other stage you've already completed (then the cars are random) or unless you've picked a car that was gonna appear (then it starts working its way backwards), also the spots are all randomized except for the boss car, etc etc etc

so yeah its an advantage but all of the rules are effectively fixed (save for the RNG) so you could just as easily write them down in an excel sheet.

SinfulBliss wrote:
No big deal right now because speedruns are usually 10-20 seconds apart (barring the current #1 and #2, but they won't be so close for long Wink.
coolio

side note: i've started doing pacifist runs and i'm convinced it's possible as long as you RNG abuse to balance out the weaker cars in a race

heres my strategy atm:
stage 1-2: formula 7 since it's the weakest car. of course picking F7 makes nimi appear but picking, say, tornado shark makes f7 appear so it's the least of two evils
stage 3-4: max revenge since it's the strongest car it's gonna be picking up scraps from Lead Oxide
stage 5: i haven't beat this one yet but it's probably either max revenge (since he's still fairly fast at this point) or f7 (since all the cars are at a pretty strong point it might be best to just try and win as fast as you can)
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Wed 10 May 2017, 4:23 am

rafa1231518 wrote:
[then the hacker simply disables that flag, which sounds a lot easier doesn't it?
rafa1231518 wrote:
see above, i guess

I mean for speedruns, you can force the checksum to appear if they're hacking the game, right?

rafa1231518 wrote:

unless it's stage 1/stage 2 and you've completed the game up to El King (the formation for those two seems to stay), or unless it's any other stage you've already completed (then the cars are random) or unless you've picked a car that was gonna appear (then it starts working its way backwards), also the spots are all randomized except for the boss car, etc etc etc

so yeah its an advantage but all of the rules are effectively fixed (save for the RNG) so you could just as easily write them down in an excel sheet.

You made it show the 4 cars that the RNG actually chose, or you just made it show all the available cars that the game can put in?

rafa1231518 wrote:

coolio

side note: i've started doing pacifist runs and i'm convinced it's possible as long as you RNG abuse to balance out the weaker cars in a race

heres my strategy atm:
stage 1-2: formula 7 since it's the weakest car. of course picking F7 makes nimi appear but picking, say, tornado shark makes f7 appear so it's the least of two evils
stage 3-4: max revenge since it's the strongest car it's gonna be picking up scraps from Lead Oxide
stage 5: i haven't beat this one yet but it's probably either max revenge (since he's still fairly fast at this point) or f7 (since all the cars are at a pretty strong point it might be best to just try and win as fast as you can)

That's unique -- the strategy actually revolves around who you prevent the AI from throwing in. Well, I still don't see how Stage 11 is going to be beaten, but I guess that'll be tested.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Wed 10 May 2017, 4:34 am

SinfulBliss wrote:
I mean for speedruns, you can force the checksum to appear if they're hacking the game, right?
Read my words, you do, but sense make they not to you.

SinfulBliss wrote:
You made it show the 4 cars that the RNG actually chose, or you just made it show all the available cars that the game can put in?
the ones it actually chose, that's why i commented about it being cheaty! of course the results are only meaningfully random if you've actually beaten the stage (otherwise it's just the well defined rules, the only randomness being which car goes in which slot) so if that's such a big issue i can disable it then and sort the results alphabetically everywhere else but that just sounds like a silly change to me. or i could disable it altogether but youd need to present a damn good argument for that.

SinfulBliss wrote:
Well, I still don't see how Stage 11 is going to be beaten, but I guess that'll be tested.
yeah stage 11 is gonna be a tough one but even then i still have no reason to believe its not possible. after all with monstaa out of the equation it's a simple race against the c(l)ock
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Wed 10 May 2017, 4:57 am

rafa1231518 wrote:
the ones it actually chose, that's why i commented about it being cheaty! of course the results are only meaningfully random if you've actually beaten the stage (otherwise it's just the well defined rules, the only randomness being which car goes in which slot) so if that's such a big issue i can disable it then and sort the results alphabetically everywhere else but that just sounds like a silly change to me. or i could disable it altogether but youd need to present a damn good argument for that.

If it shows the ones the RNG actually chose, does that mean they can change the cars they'll play against by simply scrolling to another stage and then scrolling back? Also it must be random -- I can play Stage 1, without having beaten it 5 separate times and it's likely I will get different cars 5 times. Sometimes I might get Nimi, sometimes LVC, who knows. It's more or less random which ones you get.

It only becomes a bit of an unfair advantage if they can change their roll of cars significantly faster than someone without the client. But we still haven't really clarified whether or not this client will become mandatory for running.

Obviously we need a way to stop hackers but it will also make speedrunning slightly less accessible to the general public (some people won't go to the trouble, if you can even call it that, of downloading another client for running).
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   Wed 10 May 2017, 5:13 am

SinfulBliss wrote:
If it shows the ones the RNG actually chose, does that mean they can change the cars they'll play against by simply scrolling to another stage and then scrolling back?
yes, but the only difference will be the order of the cars, unless you've completed the stage already.

SinfulBliss wrote:
Also it must be random -- I can play Stage 1, without having beaten it 5 separate times and it's likely I will get different cars 5 times.
did you pick a different car? of course then there will be different AI because the game won't want 2 same cars in a race.
if you haven't beat the stage then it's always the same 4 last unlocked cars + 1 locked boss car; if one of the cars is the same as yours it keeps going for the previous cars until it fidns one that hasn't been chosen yet.

SinfulBliss wrote:
Sometimes I might get Nimi, sometimes LVC, who knows. It's more or less random which ones you get.
the order, not the cars themselves. unless you've completed the stage already, in which case it's random but still uses a few rules that make it less random in some cases.

SinfulBliss wrote:
It only becomes a bit of an unfair advantage if they can change their roll of cars significantly faster than someone without the client.
as i said, there's no point 'changing' the cars because unless you're doing a non-NG run it's gonna be the same few cars - it's only displayed to be informative, so if you pick a car that would be on the grid on a stage you know what car replaces the car you pick on the grid.

SinfulBliss wrote:
Obviously we need a way to stop hackers but it will also make speedrunning slightly less accessible to the general public (some people won't go to the trouble, if you can even call it that, of downloading another client for running).
i never intended on it really becoming mandatory, it's just an extra layer of 'i am not cheating' on top of the existing game because obviously you could just use opennfmm and fuck with the values and claim you're playing real nfmm.
it's probably a shot in the foot for me to say this, but the people who won't be arsed to download the client are the people who probably don't pose a threat.
who knows. it's our job to keep the runs legit, isn't it? i'm sure you can cheat in Undertale runs as well, for example.
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PostSubject: Re: NFM Speedrunning   

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NFM Speedrunning

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