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 Car balance & possibility of tiers

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MDX
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PostSubject: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Thu 2 Sep - 1:46

WARNING: Great wall of text ahead. If you are reading this, you have 2 options: read it COMPLETELY and reply comprehensively or don't read it and turn back now. If you do not intend to discuss this, please leave without posting. Thank you.

Well, as you know, I have completed all the stages of NFM2 with MAX Revenge and wasted every car with it. I'm also close to doing so with Sword of Justice and started doing it 2 days ago with EL KING. I will only talk about my MAX Revenge experience (since it was the only one I completed) as an introduction to the topic at hand.

While the first few stages were fairly simple since there was a ton of room for error and I was really aiming to finish the game rather than going for the wasting of every car, which I intended to leave for in the final stage. As I progressed, I managed to waste a few weak idiots who got in my way like Kool Kat, Tornado Shark, Nimi, Mighty Eight and so on. Even further in my playthrough, I had to start wasting stronger enemies (keep in mind I was using ONLY MAX Revenge). EL KING was no walk in the park and Wow Caninaro suffered quite a lot before it went down. Then came the time to waste the big 3: MASHEEN, Radical One and DR Monstaa.

Radical One took me by surprise. He was faster and more athletic than me, and had basically EVERY STAT better than MAX Revenge (3 of them being maxed out). Strength being one of them. With the speed added to the equation, the ability to dodge my attacks very well and the constant MAX power supply of his stunts, he proved to be a tough opponent to defeat. I eventually pulled through with a few visits to my friend, the electrified hoop.

MASHEEN is ungodly broken statwise. He is blessed with not only MASSIVE strength but also maxed out Power Save, now known as Endurance. He cant stunt and can barely move but he DOESN'T NEED TO. If you go into him, you DIE. Simple. His power is something to be reckoned with because he doesn't lose it very quick and a few rollspins will fix whatever he lost. He wasted me countless times in various stages without so much as poking him once. He was only wasted after a fierce battle with DR Monstaa, which left him extremely weak. EVEN SO, it took MAX Revenge about 5 full power rams against the corner to put an end to MY misery in the party stage.

Speaking of DR Monstaa... Surprisingly, he was not as hard to defeat as MASHEEN simply because I could survive for about 3 middle/high strength crashes and that gave me time to run to the nearest hoop and fix myself up before the next attack. However, thats not to say it was easy. Besides the fact that it was time consuming. It took me a lot of hits to kill him. And I do mean A LOT of the old "hit and run to the next god forsaken fix loop as fast as I can" routine. DR Monsta only has maxed out Endurance (Power Save) with the other stats being pretty close to the max (except for Stunts and Top Speed which are still pretty close but not so much as the others). This made him a formidable opponent. MASHEEN was godlike power + godlike strength. DR Monstaa combined godlike power with very very good strength and very good speed. He can also replace the lost power more easily than MASHEEN. He is definately a force to be reckoned with and deserves to be the last boss of the game.

Where am I trying to go with this? First of all, as a single player game, this makes it very difficult to enjoy the game to its fullest, not allowing us to use every car in the roster for fear of being too weak to sustain a touch of some of the other cars. This is especially true in the later stages of the game like "Rolling with the Big Boys", "Dances with Monsters" and "Four Dimensional Vertigo" which are very long and grueling tests of patience. This happens, in part due to the violent (and dare I say severly flawed) Artificial Inteligence but mostly to the above mentioned discrepancy between, for example, any of the starting cars, and the aforementioned big 3. I feel sorry for anyone who is trying to master something like Tornado Shark or Drifter X because they can hold up agaisnt most of the roster but get ANNIHILATED by the stronger vehicles, thus making them virtually useless. This further prevents the full enjoyment of such cars and anyone who is a fan of their looks and overall feel could be led astray from them by their uselessness in the actual competitive game.

Speaking of competition, multiplayer is where this so called "broken-ness" is going have the biggest impact. Why should I not be able to play competitively with something like Kool Kat? Well, for one, because most of the people playing the game competitively will be using one of those 3 cars, especially Radical One and DR Monstaa (since they are the most well rounded) and the person driving the weaker lavander Cadillac ElDorado Seville will be most likely beaten by the other 6 players driving their Radical Ones in "The Stretch". This narrow minded thinking will put an end to the enjoyment of a game from a person that is trying to play the game the way it should be played: by going insane with a wide assortment of vehicles and most importantly, having FUN. While thats happening, the other 6 players have already crossed the line at the same time because they are all driving the same overpowered cars and domintaing every other player who tries to have FUN.

To what accounts to the single player, there is not much to do. The game was made like this and if you want to waste MASHEEN with Nimi you will need either the luck of a leprechaun, the patience of a saint, the skills of a god or a combination of the three (in which case you might be a leprechaun/saint/god hybrid...wow...).

As for the multiplayer, much can be changed. There are, in my vision, 3 options:

1- Removal of those 3 cars from the game completely, leaving it with a more balanced selection of cars;
2- Rethink the stats of the cars that are too unbalanced (raise the weaklings and lower the brutes);
3- Divide the cars into groups having in account the overall, general sum of all the stats (creating so called "tiers").

I voiced my concern. You may (dis)agree and suggest more options, share your personal experiences and whatnot. Just make it more than 2 lines of nonsense. Thanks for reading if you got down here and feel free to reply. Also, please don't post tier lists, this topic is not about "El King is faster than Masheen" but rather about how that effects us as player of this awesome game.


Last edited by MoGa_DeX on Thu 2 Sep - 13:33; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : the joys of proofreading)
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InhumanPwnage
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Thu 2 Sep - 9:14

Mmmm, yes i see where this topic went. I don't have that much to say, but it's about time we did look at NFM 2 this way.

As you know, I'm no "specialist" with any NFM (1 or 2) car, but I keep my options open as I'm fine with any one and drive exceptionally well with any one. Much to my dismay, I haven't played NFM 2 a lot since its release, but that's only because I'm doing something i should've done a long time ago.

I think that NFM 2 has got its variety where its mouth is. Meaning, there's quite a bit you can do, and the more stuff to do, the merrier and the more endless amounts of fun this game can give you. At this point, I sound like I'm making NFM 2 look like a Product. Fear not, just explaining that it can be seen that way. I can't imagine how NFM Multiplayer will be, we can try and see if Omar Waly has got everything under control, but as for now, I couldn't be bothered trying, as we all saw what Omar is capable of, I'm sure he's going to do something to balance it.

Looking at it your way, indeed I would see it as unfair, but what's to stop someone tempted or lazy enough to do it? I'd certainly race in my own custom car, cause I'd want to have fun my way, not for people to stop and stare at what I made and avoid competition from me.

The very first thing I'll say about NFM Multiplayer having kept the above in mind, if Omar introduces a Wins/Loses or whatever he shall put that has to do with a player's statistics, I'd do it that in order to obtain an official "win", every player in a game "channel" who would like to form a race, would have to race in a custom car BY FORCE (or else, vice versa, to obtain a win/lose on their statistics, every player must be using a specific NFM 1/2 car). In other words, a game is either "official" or "unofficial". Official just for statistics, unofficial, for fun.

This was my option, but it just might confuse the players a little bit, but I'm sure it's easy to implement, as I've seen it over Command and Conquer games on the internet, a modded/player made map is by force an unofficial game, but for an official game to be ranked in the highscores, by force a Westwood made map. (this was just an example to illustrate where I got the idea from, and can actually work pretty well in NFM).

Thanks for your time reading, time I got back to what I do best in NFM.
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Alex Kirchu
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Fri 3 Sep - 9:53

Well, I have to agree with MDX. I kinda understand what you're saying IP, but I'll have to read into it a bit more.

I did say prior to NFM 2's release that having MASHEEN as a car would be particularly unfair and broken car, and I don't see much point in having it in a multiplayer. I mean what's the fun in getting into a big fat bully and crashing and killing everyone just like that? At first I thought that Kool Kat would be a nice car to drive, and I was right, but once you're introduced to other cars like the big 3 as MDX would like to call it, I just left Kool Kat almost for dead, never to use it again. In terms of balance, NFM 2 is more unbalanced that NFM 1 I'd say. IMO, Dr Monstaa and Radical One, already formidable opponents in NFM 1, just got a whole upgrade without the need. I'd love to smash Dr Monstaa with Lead Oxide and hear that loud crash noise like I did in NFM 1, but now all I hear is a small "dent" noise, totally unappealing.

In terms of challenge however, NFM 2 has much more of that. For example, the challenge of wasting MASHEEN with a small car could be fun.

I think what IP is saying is that in Multiplayer there should be different game modes or servers with conditions like Halo, i.e. only custom cars, or only original cars, only race/waste etc.

I have to wrap this up now as I don't really have much more to say at the moment and I'm a bit time pressured.
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Dovenaz
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Sat 4 Sep - 4:14

Well i can agree with MDX also IP but i don't get your point slightly

Ok,Well i normally didn't like masheen being in nfm he's just too strong and pretty much removes the fun in the game..so i don't mind if he's removed.

But however removing Radical One and DR Monstaa? NVM!!..These 2 cars adds up to the challenge and they are quite good..Their one of the factors that put the words "fun" and "challenge" and removing them would..well remove those moods.What i'm proving is this..

Imagine yourself,A player of nfm that doesn't know or does not have the skills to make their own cars..and the release of Multiplayer is near..and you don't have your own car... what do you do? Why,you use radical one or DR monstaa...to survive in the multiplayer world

See,removing them would be a disgust to those kinds of players and for me too...
Because these two cars are like the voices or defenders of these kinds of players.

Having change their stats..well i'm still thinking about it.But Removing those two..Well i don't really know what'll happen..

I have to end it from here since i'm running out of words to send
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Sat 4 Sep - 18:19

OK, I totally called it! Look at the first two posts. MDX I couldn't help myself but to post this as soon as I could BEFORE reading your text.

Make a strategy section! Read here: http://aimgames.forummotion.com/forum-suggestions-f21/nfm-2-request-for-staff-t495.htm

IP, I've been trying to make that point for a while now. We need to make a new section for strategy's before it screws up everything here, since strategy's will be taking over.

MDX, I swear you stole my idea right from my head. I had it planned and everything... Mad

I suggest you make a strategy section and move this there, before there are anymore posts like these.


Tiers: (NOTE: I'm going to post this soon)

God Tier


Radical One

A new and improved R1 form. With 3 of his stats rocketing, this beast speeds through almost any enemy, making them go sky high. This ramp-effect causes massive damage, and is a great follow up since it leaves your opponent in a terrible position. With enough speed to out-run a mighty eight, a race is not a chase. For speed cars like F7, your stunt amount rockets you to first place with a triple back-flip. Clearly, he is the top car.


High Tier


Dr Monsta

A classic NFM car, with a true need for madness. This car is almost un-fair, as all of his stats are almost rocketed each. Go on a rampage and chase down all those slow-pokes, and let them face their doom. A magnificent impact effect on most cars happens, sending them flying to a wall. If the hit doesn't kill them, the impact will. With almost NO recoil damage whatsoever, you can crush the target car without worrying about your health. Do a nice race and crush whatever speed demon try's to cross your path. Truly this car is the leader of the high-tiers, almost reaching god.


That's a taste of what I'm making. Is that what you mean MDX? (By the way, I finished reading your post.)
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MDX
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Sat 4 Sep - 18:47

Please post tiers in another topic CK.
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Sat 4 Sep - 20:57

I was trying to find out if that's what you meant by tiers. I take that as a yes.

I read over your thing again, my bad.
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InhumanPwnage
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Sat 4 Sep - 22:43

CerealKiller wrote:
IP, I've been trying to make that point for a while now. We need to make a new section for strategy's before it screws up everything here, since strategy's will be taking over.

What point? I don't think anyone understood the last part of my post correctly ¬¬

We're all looking at NFM in-depth here. NFM (was/is) in my opinion, never meant to be such a game where we literally talk about the "how" and "when" of NFM. NFM in my opinion, should just be a plain racing game.. you can do quite a bit of this stuff on other racing games too.. so no need of all this "strategy". I leave it all up to you guys.

...Nobody understood my last post. Shortened version:

Split NFM games that people will create into 2 - Official or Unofficial.

Official: Play to have a wins/loses. (if Omar will implement such a feature).
Unofficial: Play for fun.

That being said, one of them has to contain ONLY original NFM 2 cars, or custom-made cars. It can be anyone, just mentioning this alternative to 'tiers'.

As for the stats of the custom-made car, that's a different story which I got A LOT of different ideas for. But let's keep it at this.
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Sat 4 Sep - 23:10

@InhumanPwnage wrote:
it's about time we did look at NFM 2 this way.

That point.

A good idea would be, the more wins we get the more points we get. Points let you make certain stats higher. All cars start with a base amount of points, 30 for example; Then each win gets you one point (more or less). This should be for custom cars only though.
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InhumanPwnage
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Sun 5 Sep - 0:35

CerealKiller wrote:
A good idea would be, the more wins we get the more points we get. Points let you make certain stats higher. All cars start with a base amount of points, 30 for example; Then each win gets you one point (more or less). This should be for custom cars only though.




Quote :
But let's keep it at this.
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MDX
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Mon 6 Sep - 14:06

CerealKiller wrote:
@InhumanPwnage wrote:
it's about time we did look at NFM 2 this way.

That point.

A good idea would be, the more wins we get the more points we get. Points let you make certain stats higher. All cars start with a base amount of points, 30 for example; Then each win gets you one point (more or less). This should be for custom cars only though.

That would be a good idea but then there would have to be a bunch of separate servers because the people that are just starting to play wouldn't think the game to be fair if a guy with a maxed out Nimi would waste their radical 1. Its just common sense to separate higher ranked players from lower ranked players.
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Mon 6 Sep - 17:57

Well that's part of the skill, saying, "I beat a guy with 100 wins and I just started!".
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InhumanPwnage
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Mon 6 Sep - 18:26

CerealKiller wrote:
Well that's part of the skill, saying, "I beat a guy with 100 wins and I just started!".

Omar clearly stated that there won't be any Statistics attached to ANY player. Said this yesterday over hte Facebook group.

I guess my idea is stale now. Oh well.. I'm still wondering how he's going to sort out this problem of people using Radical One or Dr Monstaa against Custom Made cars.
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MDX
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Mon 6 Sep - 18:58

Hes probably gonna make us use stats from one of the original cars. Like for example you upload a car. Then it asks you what set of stats do you want to use and for example you choose Radical One's stats.

Thats just an idea but it should solve the stat problem.
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Alex Kirchu
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Tue 7 Sep - 7:04

But what if there is like a super detailed car? It would be too vulnerable. Or a car with only 1 piece, can't be wasted.

He should make this analysing thing that can analyse the number of piece limits in the custom car and with that it would automatically determine the dammult, maxmag and other stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Tue 7 Sep - 13:27

An extract from a conversation with Omar Waly on facebook today:

Omar Waly wrote:
after the multiplsyer is online there will a super downloadable version where you can connect with it multiplayer and make your own cars in it and tracks and share them online...its a long story...

you will be able to use the same codes for the cars and tracks you made in hacked game in that super downloadble version...

André Lopes wrote:
Super downloadable sounds extremely high tech xD Good luck with that. It'll probably be difficult to make the game balanced since the hacked cars might just have their stats too high or just being completely invincible. I'd love to know how you are going to work that out.

Omar Waly wrote:
I will work that out...(thats just some added programing i have already figured out)

AND there will be classes of cars like for example Radical One, Dr Monstaa are class A cars, mighty eight high rider class B... Based on the class your car is in you will be able to give it amount of speed vs strength vs stunt ability...

The class your car is in will be decided by the voters! people vote which class this car should be in based on its look...

What do you think of that? Very Happy

What do YOU think of that? I think that's clear enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Tue 7 Sep - 14:27

Me?

I think that that's a great idea! Downloadable, class given by voters...

In my opinion the cars like Radical One and DR Monstaa would probably end up in packs that you have to buy with real cash...
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Alex Kirchu
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Wed 8 Sep - 7:32

Yes! I think that's a great idea. But just one thing I want you, MDX, to ask Omar: With cars that have many pieces and stuff, HOW will the vulnerability problem be solved, as in take my taxi for example. It has many pieces so I have to make it have a high maxmag and low dammult. Will we be able to modify those in the game or will there be a system to sort that out automatically, like a piece number analyser or something?
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MDX
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Wed 8 Sep - 14:16

I do not know how the class system will work. I know as much as you. I do not think that NFM2 will handle your taxi too well...
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Wed 8 Sep - 20:45

MoGa_DeX wrote:
An extract from a conversation with Omar Waly on facebook today:

Omar Waly wrote:
after the multiplsyer is online there will a super downloadable version where you can connect with it multiplayer and make your own cars in it and tracks and share them online...its a long story...

you will be able to use the same codes for the cars and tracks you made in hacked game in that super downloadble version...

André Lopes wrote:
Super downloadable sounds extremely high tech xD Good luck with that. It'll probably be difficult to make the game balanced since the hacked cars might just have their stats too high or just being completely invincible. I'd love to know how you are going to work that out.

Omar Waly wrote:
I will work that out...(thats just some added programing i have already figured out)

AND there will be classes of cars like for example Radical One, Dr Monstaa are class A cars, mighty eight high rider class B... Based on the class your car is in you will be able to give it amount of speed vs strength vs stunt ability...

The class your car is in will be decided by the voters! people vote which class this car should be in based on its look...

What do you think of that? Very Happy

What do YOU think of that? I think that's clear enough.

Figgin' A, That makes a lot of sense due to saying that. example: The Chosen One: It's not going to be a fair match saying My Adrennaline Pulsar wont catch up to it while it reaches max speed because its faster, my Gud Av Doden cant Kill it, And CERTIANLY Cannot run from it; Formula 7: Do you really think Someone's gonna drive that speed demon in a death race against Der Furer, The Gud Av Doden, The destroyer, Chaos Charriot, EL King, M A S H E E N, and General B.A (The tank in my game)? If I was the driver of F7 I'd throw up a whit flag the moment I seen them. And Using M A S H E E N against a buncha little cars; Ex: F7, Nimi (like anyone would use it.), Etc. It's an unfair advantage.

in other words I'm glad Omar is havin' classes.
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Alex Kirchu
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Thu 9 Sep - 7:55

MoGa_DeX wrote:
I do not know how the class system will work. I know as much as you. I do not think that NFM2 will handle your taxi too well...

But Omar Waly said to you:

Omar Waly wrote:
The class your car is in will be decided by the voters! people vote which class this car should be in based on its look...

And I was asking about the vulnerability of the car not the class. Do you think you or someone who has contact to Omar could ask him about the dammult, maxmag and clrad stats and how they will be changed to suit the car in NFM Multiplayer?
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Thu 9 Sep - 8:43

MoGa_DeX wrote:
I do not think that NFM2 will handle your taxi too well...

He said all you need to know Alex. As for your piece problem, wait and see. Try and improve on your car making skills in that case if you're so worried.. i for example, had a piece with about 18 points for the front, and more for hte front glass window i think.. but they nearly took my whole computer screen... (for this car i made lately).
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Alex Kirchu
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Thu 9 Sep - 10:42

So basically what you're saying is for me to combine my pieces, I see. Well at the moment I'm gonna leave my taxi but for new cars I will make the pieces have a lot of points, like IP's 18 point front. However with that said it can get confusing having so many points in one piece.
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MDX
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Thu 9 Sep - 14:29

Thats a good strategy to make the car take less space. Another good one is taking what is useless off. If its not seen or doesn't add anything to the car, just take it off.


I guess I was right when I made this topic Razz Even the title says "possibility of tiers" XD
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PostSubject: Re: Car balance & possibility of tiers   Tue 14 Sep - 21:34

Okay, How are people supposed to vote? Like say: My Adrennaline Pulsar in my game is built for speed. Are people gonna look at the car all the way? And also, What if someone wants the Competition to look like $#!? and have the good one be face down in the mud? How is that gonna plan out?
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