NFM Speedrunning

Subject: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 12:41 am

NFM SPEEDRUNNING

Link to NFM Speedrunning page: https://www.speedrun.com/need_for_madness_1/full_game
Big thanks to SheppardKillerYT for setting this up!

Sinful's Recommended Strategy For Speedrunning NFM1:

Miscellaneous Category Guides:

Pacifist-mode Strategy Guide by Rafa:

No Country For Old Men Strategy Guide by Sinful:

NFM Speedrunning Discord Group: https://discord.gg/5kQNPSe

Let me know if I should add anything else to the topic.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 12:45 am

Nice job Enigma, I was thinking about making this but I'm glad someone involved did it first.

I'd recommend a guide on how to create a speedrun, and a leaderboard when a few people start competing.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 1:25 am

As far as guides go, I think you should also mention this ( http://www.speedrunslive.com/tools/ ) . People can download screen recorders and timers there, if they haven't downloaded it already.

And yeah, leaderboards, tips and tricks, etc, among other things. thisisgonnabfun

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 1:38 am

What are people's thoughts on running the original NFM1?

The NFM1 version in NFMM doesn't use the actual NFM1 cars, and it includes scenery.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 2:11 am

SinfulBliss wrote:: What are people's thoughts on running the original NFM1?

The NFM1 version in NFMM doesn't use the actual NFM1 cars, and it includes scenery.

(My apologies for posting here a lot) As far as I am aware, NFM 1 requires a much older version of Java, and presumably won't work alongside NFM 2 and NFMM, which requires newer Java. For me, after updating Java, I was unable to run it, and I couldn't get it back, so I'm not sure if it's even possible at this point. Is this only my problem?

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 3:41 am

I don't run the game via free play if that's what you're thinking also The Mad Party is only included at the end of the NFM 2 tracks instead of one for both so that's why i just run the game on the PC version specifically on the NFM 1 menu option

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 4:36 am

SuperLemonDrop wrote:

SinfulBliss wrote:: What are people's thoughts on running the original NFM1?

The NFM1 version in NFMM doesn't use the actual NFM1 cars, and it includes scenery.

As far as I am aware, NFM 1 requires a much older version of Java, and presumably won't work alongside NFM 2 and NFMM, which requires newer Java. For me, after updating Java, I was unable to run it, and I couldn't get it back, so I'm not sure if it's even possible at this point. Is this only my problem?

You need Java 7 Update 21 in order to run any kind of NFM1, as well as many custom NFM Versions. You have to uninstall the newer Java version you have first though.

NFMM works with Java 7 Update 21.

SheppardkillerYT wrote:: I don't run the game via free play if that's what you're thinking also The Mad Party is only included at the end of the NFM 2 tracks instead of one for both so that's why i just run the game on the PC version specifically on the NFM 1 menu option

I'm talking about the original NFM1. Before NFMM was released, NFM1 was its own game. Then NFM2 came out as its own game. Once Omar released NFMM, he added NFM1 and NFM2 into it, but they had updated features.

The runs you guys were doing were on NFMM's version of NFM1. The scenery, the cars, and the physics were all NFMM.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 8:53 am

Yeah, I know but hey I wanted a challenge on the newer version of NFM 1 and so far I'm really getting there and I been practicing no car fix stage 5 and I keep hitting that stupid edge of the ramp at the end of the lap taking half of my health off and it's getting really annoying but I'm trying my best to beat that level no car fix.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 9:11 am

Looking ahead, have you considered the possibility of people hacking their games to get faster runs? It is possible to slightly change certain stats of the cars to make the run faster. I'm not sure how this would be combated, but considering how much of a problem hacking became in NFMM it can't hurt to think ahead.

Top speed hacks would be detected because of the speedometer, and grip hacks would be easily seen. However, strength, endurance, and acceleration hacks could prove more problematic. Perhaps someone could design a client that shows these stats on-screen, and locks the client from further edits. Not sure if the latter part is plausible, but just a reading of current stats would do a lot to deter people from hacking.

Of course, once a client like this is made, previous runs wouldn't have to be nullified since the client wasn't around then. But because of this it's important to find a way to prevent hackers now, before more people start running it with a client that may be edited.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 11:56 am

Well with every run I record you can tell that I'm not physically cheating with a different client because the screen recorder I have covers the entire screen so you can see what's open in my task bar and for the hacker thing I just never saw that in my NFMM experience even though I never lasted around the community at that time which was when I was really unknown to you guys so I was just another random idiot getting mad at AB abuse which was ridiculous cause everyone kept AB'ing in my games and I only managed to win 2 games out of that entire experience as a whole. As for the whole client thing to show the stats on screen to prevent further edits doesn't necessarily mean that we would have to nullify runs that were proved to be legit previously, hell if it stops hackers then what would it change game play wise other than just extra stats to make sure people aren't cheating? It's a good way as to be an anti-cheat client but eventually people will work around it but then again who knows since the community has kinda withered away but I know some of you guys are still around but not as much though.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 2:48 pm

Also what you mentioned about the starting time on the actual speedrun forum on speedrun.com there's a screen after the track preview screen before the panorama where you can hit the A and S key to actually make the guidance arrow and map change before the race even begins before the panorama view actually shows up but idk I just went with once you entered stage 1 you start because I'm used to certain games that're usually like that so sorry if there was any confusion with that.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 5:51 pm

SheppardKillerYT wrote:: you can tell that I'm not physically cheating with a different client because the screen recorder I have covers the entire screen

Just because someone's whole screen is being recorded doesn't mean their NFMM client itself isn't modified to be slightly better than others. Not everyone's going to be honest like you were, if you get what I mean.

SheppardKillerYT wrote:: As for the whole client thing to show the stats on screen to prevent further edits doesn't necessarily mean that we would have to nullify runs that were proved to be legit previously, hell if it stops hackers then what would it change game play wise other than just extra stats to make sure people aren't cheating?

I'm saying without a method to prove people aren't changing stats, it's impossible to prove a run to be legit. It doesn't affect gameplay, but it proves that the person didn't adjust stats. We have no way of proving that now. I don't think we have to nullify anything, but in the future if people start hacking we will have no way of telling between those who hacked and those who didn't if we don't do anything.

It'd suck if all the hard work you and everyone put into their speedrun was quickly outshined by undetected hackers.

Another thing - DragShot released a custom client that records splits and lap times, just like WSplit. Should everyone just use that like we did during the time trial topic? It would make start and end times 100% consistent for all speedrunners.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 5:55 pm

SinfulBliss wrote:: I'm not sure how this would be combated,

The same way cheating is dealt with in every other game you can speedrun. If it does not offer an exportable replay feature, there is nothing that can be done.

You must also weigh in the fact that nobody cares enough about the game to cheat.

SinfulBliss wrote:: DragShot released a custom client that records splits and lap times, just like WSplit. Should everyone just use that like we did during the time trial topic?

No. Using modded clients can cause synchronicity issues. I know that, because I've made one.

SinfulBliss wrote:: The runs you guys were doing were on NFMM's version of NFM1. The scenery, the cars, and the physics were all NFMM.

I have already addressed this on the original topic. Classic NFM1 and NFMM-NFM1 are different categories.

SinfulBliss wrote:: Perhaps someone could design a client that shows these stats on-screen

This is possible.

SinfulBliss wrote:: and locks the client from further edits

This is not.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 6:06 pm

@Rafa - just because NFMM doesn't offer an exportable replay feature doesn't mean we can't hinder cheating through a created client that displays car stat values on screen.

I thought that no one cared enough to cheat too now, but I discovered that to be wrong a month or so ago. People are cheating in competitive NFMM to the bitter end it seems. Where there is a chance to get a rank, people are going to cheat for it.

Does using a modified client cause synchronicity issues if everyone uses it? We used it for time trials and it worked just fine. Seems better than arbitrarily pressing a hot key before and after a run, especially in single track runs where the difference between a winning and losing run could be tenths of a second.

I know NFMM NFM1 and original NFM1 different categories, but that's ambiguous on the speedrun website. Does Any%, Race Only and Waste Only have their own original NFM1 counterparts?

EDIT: Well, it's a shame it's not possible to lock like RADQ files but even displaying the stats is a huge help.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 6:44 pm

SinfulBliss wrote:: just because NFMM doesn't offer an exportable replay feature doesn't mean we can't hinder cheating through a created client that displays car stat values on screen.

Neither would that stop anyone from simply modifying the client to display fake values.

SinfulBliss wrote:: People are cheating in competitive NFMM to the bitter end it seems.

It's just the same few names that keep popping up again and again. Versatile, Aggression & Friends Co.

SinfulBliss wrote:: Does using a modified client cause synchronicity issues if everyone uses it?

No, that would cause division issues. As in, not everyone's gonna want to use the magical client.

SinfulBliss wrote:: I know NFMM NFM1 and original NFM1 different categories, but that's ambiguous on the speedrun website.

Yes, because no-one cares enough to speedrun NFM1.

SinfulBliss wrote:: displaying the stats is a huge help.

I beg to differ. It merely lures you into a false sense of security.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 8:05 pm

Unfortunately there is little to nothing we can do to stop hacking, it's no different to NFMM. Ideally there would be a system that ensures a level playing field but given the current state and activity among the community this seems unrealistic. As rafa said video analysis is about as far as we can go, I doubt anyone is even going to bother to try and hack though.

I also think that all speedruns should be done in the NFM single player versions of the original games, since that is what Sheppard has done and I see no reason to revert to using the old ones.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 8:19 pm

I think we should revert to the old ones, because the original stages weren't meant to have scenery in the first place and scenery isn't really well accepted in the competitive scene either. Also, scenery causes performance issues on weaker computers. Overall, I feel like doing speedruns on the original NFM1 makes more sense and it also brings back a bit of nostalgia.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Mon 24 Apr 2017, 9:57 pm

Gonna be streaming some NFM 1 speedrun practice at http://beam.pro/sheppardkiller at 5 to 6 PM my time. Hope to see you guys there!

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Tue 25 Apr 2017, 3:32 am

Rafa:

Spoiler:

---

Enigma wrote:: As rafa said video analysis is about as far as we can go, I doubt anyone is even going to bother to try and hack though.

Well, we can go a bit further and include stat values on-screen. This is pretty easy to do I believe, although I don't know how to do it myself lol.

Phyrexian wrote:: I think we should revert to the old ones, because the original stages weren't meant to have scenery in the first place and scenery isn't really well accepted in the competitive scene either. Also, scenery causes performance issues on weaker computers. Overall, I feel like doing speedruns on the original NFM1 makes more sense and it also brings back a bit of nostalgia.

I agree with Phy here. Scenery and NFMM physics takes the "1" out of "NFM1." In fact, the only thing that's "NFM1" is the stage itself (and not even that entirely due to scenery). Everything else is NFMM.

I think it could be fun to do speedruns of the original game, what do you guys think? Of course, I realize we've invested a good bit of time in refining our scores in NFMM's version (yeah I've been running behind the scenes), but as you said Sheppard the AI and game is very similar.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Tue 25 Apr 2017, 2:49 pm

What I found interesting a long time ago way before I even heard of NFMM when I used to play the original NFM 1 if you choose to waste on stage 10 as EL KING you will get a rare chance of getting 2 Radical One cars on the same track which never happens to any other car in the original version and the only games where the same cars are really in the same stage is from NFM 2 RaR. Very strange but I still remember that being a thing in the original.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Tue 25 Apr 2017, 5:18 pm

SinfulBliss wrote:: Sure, someone could edit in fake values but that requires effort that would deter people from going to all the trouble.

The same applies to 'regular' cheating...

SheppardkillerYT wrote:: if you choose to waste on stage 10 as EL KING you will get a rare chance of getting 2 Radical One cars on the same track

Original NFM1 had a constant value for the chance of a car appearing on a track, which meant things like this could happen. This doesn't happen in NFM2 or NFMM because the car sorting algorithm was changed ever so slightly to have specific cars on specific stages

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Tue 25 Apr 2017, 10:24 pm

well it was really only stage 10 that had the chance for only Radical One to spawn in twice. No other stage or car have I seen that actually had the same car twice in the time I played the game.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Tue 25 Apr 2017, 10:47 pm

SheppardkillerYT wrote:: well it was really only stage 10 that had the chance for only Radical One to spawn in twice. No other stage or car have I seen that actually had the same car twice in the time I played the game.

Theoretically you can get any car to appear twice if you're really really lucky as long as it's not the boss car

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Wed 26 Apr 2017, 6:42 am

People can also edit their videos. Like combine the best clips of each individual stage, rather than a non-stop playthrough.

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Wed 26 Apr 2017, 1:59 pm

I just updated the speedrun page for NFM 1 to include the Classic NFM 1 Race and Waste Only% categories so it's not confusing for some people but for Classic NFM 1 Waste Only% it will be super hard killing all the cars on Grapefruit Power because of the single lap but I've done it before but it's really hard to even do it without Dr. Monstaa. Prepare the rage for that level. XD